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photo My one-hundred-and-eighty-second podcast is up. Scott's in Mexico this week and he's sitting down with Molly Holzschlag. Molly is a well-known Web standards advocate, instructor, and author and currently works for Opera as an evangelist. She explains the history of HTML, SGML and XML and we chat about where we think the web is headed.

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Enjoy. Who knows what'll happen in the next show?



An interesting comment thread broke out in a recent post on Using Crowdsourcing for Expanding Localization of Products. Someone linked to a post and used the phrase:

"If you don't know English, you're not a programmer."

The post linked to didn't make the statement so boldly, but it's an interesting "link bait" phrase, isn't it? It's defintely phrased to get your attention and evoke opinions. I don't agree with it, but I wanted to dig more into the concept.

This whole conversation caught the eye of Fabrice Fonck, General Manager (GM) of Developer Content & Internationalization for DevDiv. He wrote this email to me and I wanted to share it with you. He's was a programmer before he became a manager, and English is not his first language, so I thought it fitting. I also added emphasis in spots. Fabrice believes very strongly in the usefulness of translation and translated content and has an entire organization dedicated to it, so you can understand why he'd feel strongly about this.

I began studying computer science and programming in 1985 as a freshman in a business school in France, my native country. At the time , localized versions of programming tools were not available and I will always remember when I picked up that version of GW-Basic only to realize that it was all in English. Learning programming seemed already daunting, but doing it in a foreign language only increased my level of fear. Over 20 years have gone by and English does not feel quite as foreign to me anymore, but I cannot help but think that for billions of people around the world, taking on such a double challenge may not necessarily lead to the same outcome.

Over the past 17 years in the Developer Division at Microsoft, I have devoted a large portion of my time and energy making sure our products and technologies are available in as many languages as possible because I believe it is important to make them accessible to as many people as possible around the world. During all these years, I have had the privilege of traveling to many countries around the world and I have talked to many of our customers, a number of which through interpreters. I have met many brilliant developers out there whose English language skills were limited if not practically non-existent. This anecdotal evidence is supported by our sales figures. In Japan for instance, where we have one of our largest developer population in the world, over 99% of our product sales are in Japanese. Entering that market with an English-only product is a recipe for failure. That same is true in counties such as France, Germany, Spain, Russia or China where our localized products represent over 80% of our sales. The list of countries goes on and on.

While it is true that a number of people overseas for whom English is not their native tongue will eventually learn and benefit from the vast amounts of technical content available in English, a greater number will not. That is why we continue to expand the number of languages in which Developer Division products and technologies are localized into. Cost is obviously an important factor here, especially for smaller geographies. That is why we continue to invest in technologies such as machine translation, translation wikis and CLIP, and concepts such as crowdsourcing and community engagement to drive down costs and make these languages a reality for the millions of developers out there (and aspiring developers) that do not speak English. By making our products available in all these languages, we also foster more community engagement in these languages, through blogs, forums, chat rooms, etc.

Here's some choice comments from the previous post:

Erling Paulsen: "Most articles, knowledge bases, books and so on are in English, so if you want to read up on something in depth, you need to have at least basic reading skills in English. Translating tooltips inside Visual Studio could end up causing confusion for at least new developers, as what they would see on-screen potentially did not match up with what the tutorial/book they were following." and "...I truly do appreciate that Microsoft is trying to make an effort, and I believe that MSDN has had a vast improvement in usability the past year or so. And the fact that MSFT are allowing community contribution is absolutely fantastic, but at least to me, the translation effort just seems a bit unnecessary." and "I never said, or meant to say that you need to be fluent in english to be a good programmer. And as Scott points out, the side-by-side translation feature would actually be a great way for learning english."

Paul van de Loo: "Developers might as well get used to learning new languages (even if they aren't programming languages)."

Spence: ""A programmer who doesn't at least understand English is not a programmer" that's an outrageous statement. That's like saying "a musician who is deaf is not a musician" patently untrue and ridiculous. plus pretty offensive to millions of programmers."

Ramiro: "I believe that in an ideal world every programmer should speak and read enough English to be able to work, learn and interact. However (and specially in Latin America) this is still a long term goal. I really applaud the effort being put in by Microsoft and other companies to make resources more available for everyone."

Robert Höglund: "I do think we developers need a common language. When you have a problem, get a strange exception, 9/10 just googling the error message will get you the answer. I have tried developing on a Swedish version of XP but trying to search for those error messages doesn't work. Can't say i agree with the statement "If you don't know English, you're not a programmer" but it does make life easier."

Farhaneh: "I can not speak and write english very well , but i'm taking classes and reading english books in my major to make it better. because i want to be a good programmer."

Filini: "The english syntax that has been used in programming languages for the last 50 years."

John Peek: "To say that if you don't know English, you're not a programmer is a perfect example of ethnocentrism in this country."

What do YOU think? Is learning English the #1 thing a Programmer should do (after learning to type)? Can you be an awesome programmer and speak little or NO English?

The comment that *I* personally agree with the most is from Ryan:

"It would *seem* (totally non-scientific sampling) that the non-english speakers (as a first language anyway) tend to agree with the statement "If you don't know English, you're not a programmer" more than native english speakers."

What do YOU think, Dear Reader?



Not everyone in the world speaks English. Such a silly thing to say, but if you live in an English-speaking country it's easy to forget that many (most?) people in the world would prefer to do their work in the language of their choice.

Microsoft ships documentation in Visual Studio that is human-translated (a huge effort) into 9 major world languages. That's millions and millions of words * 9 languages. How can we cover more languages? How can we make documentation easier for folks who are trying to learn about our products and don't speak English fluently? How can we make English interfaces easier to use for non-English speakers who want to learn English?

Last month, I spoke to members of the internationalization/globalization team in DevDiv (Developer Division) about some of the little-known stuff they are doing. I think deserves more attention as there's some pretty innovative things being done. Some are experimental, but there's hope to expand them if they succeed.

MSDN uses Machine Translation and Crowdsourcing for Documentation

Doing a lot of work with a few people is hard. Doing a lot of work with a lot of people is confusing and expensive. However, doing a little bit of work with a LOT of interested people can be useful, cheap and fun if you "crowd-source" rather than outsource. Check out the screenshot below or visit the Brazilian MSDN site and check out the Translation Wiki v2.

BrazilianMSDN

You'll see there's the English MSDN documentation on the left, and Brazilian Portuguese on the right.

 LadoALado

Make sure to select "side-by-side" or "Lado a Lado." If you hover over a sentence on the Portuguese side, a small Edit button will appear.

image

Click Edit, and you can suggest a better translation, and they'll go into a queue for community moderators to approve. Notice also that under "Other Suggestions" you'll see existing suggested translations that are in the queue for moderation.

image

The initial Portuguese text comes from the Machine Translation team. For some reason, Portuguese is the best language that the Machine Translation team understands.

The text on the site is roughly 80% MT (Machine Translated) and 20% humans via these technique, and growing. There's a goal to include more languages for the next version of Visual Studio, including possibly Arabic, Czech, Polish and Turkish, although things are still a little up in the air.

If you know a Brazilian developer, spread the word about this project and encourage them to make edits to the Brazilian MSDN site and check out the Translation Wiki v2.

Big thanks to our community partners: a group of 30 CS students, partly from the team of Prof. Hirata and Prof. Forster of Instituto Tecnologico de Aeronautica and the team of Prof. Simone Barbosa from Pontifícia Universidade Católica who post-edited 1.8 million words of MT'ed content; the Brazilian Terminologist who managed the glossary project with our MVPs; and finally the Academic Evangelist Team in DPE in Brazil who gave us their support throughout the project.

It'll be interesting to see how far this project goes and what other languages can benefit from it.

Captions Language Interface Pack (CLIP) - includes 9 more partial language translations for Visual Studio

Here's a description of the CLIP from a launching page:

"The Microsoft Captions Language Interface Pack (CLIP) is a simple language translation solution that uses tooltip captions to display results. Use CLIP as a language aid, to see translations in your own dialect, update results in your own native tongue or use it as a learning tool."

This is pretty clever. It's a background application that will show balloon tooltip help in your language while you work in the English version of Visual Studio. For example, in the screenshot below, I'm hovering my mouse over Start Debugging, and the Arabic CLIP pops up with a human translation of that menu item.

clip

It'll even help with other applications within Windows if it thinks it's got a decent translation, but for now, it is focused on correct translation for common Visual Studio options.

Even better, you can add translations of your own. In future versions, there's talk about setting up sharing (I figure you can hack it today, though, unsupported, by sharing the language database.

image

Visual Studio CLIP is available in these languages so far, all created with community and student help!

In addition to the CLIP, there's also the ability to do a Language Pack for the Visual Studio interface itself, as exemplified by the Brazilian Visual Studio Express Language Pack for SP1 that does about a 70% translation of VS into Portuguese. There's talk to do more of these also. That should make Carlos Quintero happy!

There's a lot of cool possibilities for all this technology, expanding MSDN and VS to as many languages as possible!

If you think this kind of thinking is pretty cool, leave a comment or blog about it and maybe we'll be heard by *ahem* the boss when he next (soon) reviews plans for this kind of community involvement. ;)



Unicode_sample My one-hundred-and-seventeenth podcast is up. Michael Kaplan is a Developer in the Windows International group and the author of the popular 'Sorting It Out' blog that is dedicated it all things '-ization.' That means Globalization, Internationalization, and Localization. Do check out Michael's blog as well as the Internationalization category of this blog.

Subscribe: Subscribe to Hanselminutes Subscribe to my Podcast in iTunes

If you have trouble downloading, or your download is slow, do try the torrent with µtorrent or another BitTorrent Downloader.

Do also remember the complete archives are always up and they have PDF Transcripts, a little known feature that show up a few weeks after each show.

Telerik is our sponsor for this show.

Telerik's new stuff is pretty sweet, check out the ONLINE DEMO of their new ASP.NET AJAX suite. RadGrid handles sorting, filtering, and paging of hundreds of thousands of records in milliseconds, and the RadEditor loads up to 4 times faster and the navigation controls now support binding to web services on the client.

As I've said before this show comes to you with the audio expertise and stewardship of Carl Franklin. The name comes from Travis Illig, but the goal of the show is simple. Avoid wasting the listener's time. (and make the commute less boring)

Enjoy. Who knows what'll happen in the next show?



sheba_11 I'm going to be in NYC for 3 short days (travel, talk, travel) and Dmitry Lyalin and I were thinking to do a dinner thing on Tuesday evening.

I've got an early flight out at 9am on Weds, so we'll be at Queen of Sheba NYC on Tuesday around 6:30pm. Hopefully we won't get kicked out for not having a reservation.

Every time I go to ANY town, anywhere in the world for the last 10 years, I always go to the nearest Ethiopian Restaurant. Consequently, if your town has a habesha me'gub beyt I've probably eaten there.

Ethiopian food is my grub. I could eat it all day long. I'm also into the Amharic Language, and recently Aleme from Beteseb.com read about my interest on my blog and was kind enough to send me a Fidel (The Ethiopian Alphabet is often hung as art), bringing my collection of Fidel to three. Time to find a better place to hang them. (Note, my wife is Ndebele, not Habesha, but I learned the language before I met her).

So, if you've never had Ethiopian Food, here's a good enough opportunity to come hang out and try it. (Of course, we're all going Dutch.)

RSVP in the Comments!

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